Saeed Naqvi interview with Kai Friese

Saeed Naqvi interview with Kai Friese

Saeed Naqvi gives a close eyewitness account of the various players and actors in key positions during the Emergency

12/19/15

Interviews or episodes may only be reproduced with permission from LMerian-Tagore International Centre of Advanced Studies

University of Gottingen.

Saeed Naqvi

Merian-Tagore International Centre of Advanced Studies

'''INTERVIEWEE'''

* Name: Saeed Naqvi

'''INTERVIEWER'''

* Kai Friese

'''Medium: Audio recordings'''

* Format: Audio .wav
* Language: English/ Hindi
* Date of the interview: 19/12/2015

'''Clip name/DURATION:'''

* kf_snaqvi_raw_191215_1.ogg/ 01:32:22 - [I]
* kf_snaqvi_raw_191215_2.wav/ 36:41 - [II]
* kf_snaqvi_raw_191215_3.wav/55:35 - [III]

Audio 1:

kf_snaqvi_raw_191215_2.wav [II]
{| class="wikitable"
|'''TimeCode'''
|'''Transcription'''
|'''Remarks'''
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|'''00:01'''
|KF: '''Great. So... We should be starting. Setting recording level it says. Interview with Saeed Naqvi in Saket on the Nineteenth of December, Two Thousand Fifteen. I think this has a countdown.'''
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|00:027
|SN: I didn't know where I was going... –
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|<nowiki>- ...</nowiki>'''there we go.'''
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|'''-''' … professionally. I was very keen to travel and I thought I was a writer. So I was keen to write and I was keen to travel. I did not know how to go about either because I was from Lucknow and I've no connections in Delhi. And ''uhh...'' I had some friends, some friends. And, but, not really many – this was not my city. My city, if at all, was Lucknow. I was very much a ''mufassal'' boy when I came here.
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|01:06
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Which was when?'''
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|<nowiki>- Which was... in Nineteen Hundred and Sixty-Three. </nowiki>''Uhh...'' But, a friend of mine... I had two interviews. One was with Air India, which would enable me to travel. Air India used to have an office on Janpath. Corner. And The Statesman was on Barakhamba Road. And the other interview I got was with The Statesman. So I borrowed a – it was summer. So I borrowed a light suit. The Englishman was the... was the editor. His name was Richard Crosland. And ''uhh,'' he was the resident editor. So I went in there. I saw two distinct cultures. ''Uhh...'' The... I looked the cigar smoke. I liked the fact that he had his leg/feet crossed on the table.
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|02:26
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''In a cabin.'''
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|<nowiki>- … I liked the general air of that room as opposed to the earlier interview with The Statesman - with the </nowiki>''uhh'' Air India, which was very sort of, ''uhh...'' staccato, very modern furniture. Without any character. I was offered a job for eight hundred and fifty rupees as a night manager, management trainee. And then I thought I would travel and travel and travel and travel and then I got the interview with The Statesman. The editor made me sit in a corner, and he said, can you – I thought that he was going to ask me to write something on Nehru, something on ''woh*…'' and he said, can you sit in that corner and write. Five hundred words – there used to be a thing called New Delhi Notebook.
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|02:48
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Hmm.'''''
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|<nowiki>- For New Delhi Notebook could you write, five hundred words on... mangoes, </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Ah-huh.'''''
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|<nowiki>- That gave me the opening. Mangoes was up my street. I came from an area of mangoes. We had mango groves ourselves. And we </nowiki>''uhh,'' so I – I listed mango-mangoes and anecdotes about mangoes and so on. And ''uhh'' he... looked at it. And then I received a letter, two days later. Dear Mr Naqvi, even though we cannot offer you ''uhh...'' employment – he told me that he had to refer to Calcutta, which is the head office. Even though we cannot offer you employment at the moment, we are willing to take you on as an apprentice trainee. For a period of six months. At the end of the training period, we do not guarantee you employment either. But the training you will have received here will stand you in good stead in finding work elsewhere because in those days, The Statesman was... – it was easier to get a job on The Times, London than The Statesman in India. So I couldn't. ''Uhh...'' we in ''uhh,'' … stand you in good stead in finding work elsewhere, ''uhm...'' Of course, we shall pay you pocket money of Rupees Three. Hundred per month.
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|04:15
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Wah!'''''
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|<nowiki>- So I had eight hundred and fifty there and three hundred and fifty here. There had – in the balance, friend in Hindustan Times office was right there. Also in Connaught Place, I went to him. </nowiki>''Uhh...'' Vimal Saxena. He says, you idiot, you're onto the best newspaper job in the world. So I entered The Statesman. And... as a staff reporter. In those the staff reporter, was a lower category than the sub-editor. Because the central nervous system of the newspaper in those days was what was called the desk. People. Who actually took you copy. Reshaped it. Worked on it, give it a headline, and selected the exact spot where it would be. And they were given a notch high- they were a notch above us. We were hired the same day but the fellow who got the sub editor was a little much more... That, that... I thought was very important in the journalism of those days. ''Uhh...'' within, three months, I used to write page three columns. Did a lot of exposes of NDMC and corporations and … Every reporter – this is the important thing – every reporter had to start with the New Delhi courts. Every reporter would then graduate to N-D-M-C, New Delhi Municipal Committee. Every reporter then did Police. Every reporter then did corporation. By the time you met your first MP, you had done about five years of reporting. And your name was never there, it took ten years before you met cabinet ministers and... Unlike today! Where you – people do not know what is judicial remand and they're reporting cases. People who do not– so that was the kind of training, that we had in journalism... –
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|06:28
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Do you remember your first... piece – your first by-line?'''
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|My first – first by-line, was actually it's very interesting. My – your first by-line was ''uhm... …'' in ''uhh,'' with ''uhh... …'' the Beatles.
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Oh. Lovely. When they were here or...?'''
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|<nowiki>- … when they, you see... ya. </nowiki>''Uhh,'' a person called Don Icot* from... he was a Canadian. Who was a devotee of a guru, in … in ''uhh,'' the Kumaon.
|* unfamiliar name
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|07:10
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Rishikesh? ''Mmm.'''''
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|<nowiki>- … and he spotted a little news item. He said the Beatles were coming – were coming to the ashram of the maha rishi. Now I have been very lucky. Right thing at the right time. And </nowiki>''uhh,'' he gave me that tip and it just so happened that maharishi Mahesh Yogi was holding a camp. In Modern School, which is just virtually, opposite The Statesman. So, I was very clever, and I said, thank you, Don. Next morning, there I was in the maharishi's – in those days, maharishi had had no publicity. So a journalist, number one. Who was a – I had all sorts of problems, and I told him I wanted to meditate. In those days, the problems were, you know they were all hippies, and people were, they were getting into … the big drug in those days was weed, cannabis, people were, I mean – that was being treated … hashberry and so on... So, I told him I had problems. He whispered a mantra in my ear, which I haven't told anyone yet. Which you are supposed to die with. And... I became his devotee. Despite the fact that my name was registered with him as Saeed Naqvi. So therefore this – muslim did not matter. I thought he – he thought it was even more exotic, that here's a journalist, who's muslim had become his devotee. Now, I had done this out of curiosity for maharishi, of course. But I knew, that Brian Epstein, the great manager, of the Beatles, his theory was you keep the media away and you get more publicity. I said, so the, people, the Beatles were going to keep the journalists away, and as luck would have it, five thousand journalists – people flying in private planes from London, everywhere, descended on Chaurasi Kutia, on the other side of the Ganga. And they, they were not allowed to enter and … comes a young man from The Statesman, and he goes to the gate and he says, ''jai gurudev,'' and the gate opens. And I go inside
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|09:31
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Wow.'''
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|<nowiki>- … And I call Raghu Rai, that fellow who now, pretends to be the greatest photographer on Earth. He hadn't taken pictures then. I said Raghu, I said, told the sadhus. I said, call that man! So Raghu came and he – I said now, listen, don't look flustered. I asked the sadhus to go, </nowiki>''ki,'' take charge. I just took over, as the manager. So, go look after this, that and the other. I said you put your camera here. That is maharishi, Lennon, Ringo Starr, ''uhh'', Jane Asher not Jane Asher, the ''uhh...'' McCartney. And they were all there. In (?) surrounding. And he took that one picture, and he took that one picture, and that made him.
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|10:16
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Wow.'''
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|<nowiki>- … And, when I wrote about that since I was the only one, I got a by-line. So – therefore, that's how the by-line came. Rather roundabout way of telling you the story. Then... </nowiki>''uhh,'' then I went to Jaipur. That is where Renuka's husband became a very good friend. ''Uhm,'' RK Mishra. ''Uhh,'' remarkable man. He used to drink a whole bottle of Kesar Kasturi.
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Yikes.'''
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|<nowiki>- … Just like that. And at night, he would go to the ashram, and, with his guru. And study the vedas. And the puranas, and in the morning, he was a communist. And he was a great advisor. And … - </nowiki>
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|11:01
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Was he a journalist at that time?'''
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|<nowiki>- Oh yes. P- Patriot. I was with the Statesman, young fellow who had never done any journalism. This was fellow had... </nowiki>''dada''. He knew politics. He was a trained communist. So he had – he was with the Patriot. My car* and we used to go around the city and so – so, we conquered it. Anyway, that's the... ''Uhh...'' Mrs Gandhi had … You see, Nehru... died. … pretending that he had ushered in a secular polity in India. He probably... - he imagined – Nehru, in my book, turns out to be a virtuous young man who played piano in a brothel without knowing what went on upstairs. Because immediately after his death, we had Lal Bahadur Shastri and picked. Virtually Nehru's favourite. And, he went to war with Pakistan. And during the war, he invited guru Golwalkar for RSS volunteers. To... take charge of all the city squares. As – for civil defence. So here was this big arrangement between the Congress and the – Nehru, other than Nehru, who was secular. This question plagues me. These idiots have never asked that question. There was no one.
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|12:41
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Hmm.'''''
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|<nowiki>- There was very little difference and the lots who were... – The difference was between </nowiki>''mufassal'' and between the little more metropolitan people, otherwise, they were exactly. I mean, here Shastri did it. Then he died and Indira Gandhi came. Indira Gandhi was contrary to the impression of ''durga-shakti'' and all... She was, an insecure lady, I think. She – Lohia used to call her ''gunghi-gudiya.'' He wouldn't – she wouldn't speak. And ''uhh...'' and ''uhh,'' then, in 1971, her advisors, all of them, Kashmiri Pandits. ''Uhh...'' Signed a treaty with the Soviet Union and the bangla- Pakistanis obliged. They blasted the hell out the Bangadeshis, and ten million came over to our shores. We intervened and created – and created Bangladesh. ''Uhh,'' Mrs Gandhi then was hailed by Shastri – I remember Vajpayee calling her ''shakti'' and ''durga''. He did call her that. I remember. So she became the incarnation of ''shakti'' and ''durga''. Then in... – but. Before that, she had done something else. The important thing is, that in 1979, I should have come to the Bangladesh a little later.
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|14:28
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Hmm.'''''
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|<nowiki>- Because your theme is on the emergency... – </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''No no, that isn't... –'''
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|<nowiki>- and the emergency begins to happen around 1969 – </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Why do you say that?'''
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|<nowiki>- In nineteen sixty- I'll tell you why. In 1969, a man called Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, came to India. He was invited by two sets of interests. One interest was Gandhian institutions which was then looked after by Jayprakash Narayan. Gandhian institutions, right-wing of the Congress party, the BJP, the RSS... they were all – they were all, similar family. They were all together. Within the party, there were these big party bosses like Atulya Ghosh in Bengal and </nowiki>''uhm,'' CB Gupta in Lucknow – and so on and so forth. She split the party.
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|15:25
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Mmm.'''''
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|<nowiki>- She split the party in 1969, the same year I was Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khans's press officer. So I had two sets of interest, breathing down my neck. For Indira Gandhi, I had Mohammad Younus finding out what is going on, and for JP, JP himself asking me as to what was going on. They both wanted Ghaffar Khan's visit to somehow favour them. </nowiki>
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|15:56
|'''You were still working with the Statesman?'''
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|I – My services had been loaned to Jayprakash Narayan, as press officer for Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan because... ''uhm...'' because they needed one. And I was very young in those days. Very very young, I was in my twenties. And... –
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|16:17
|'''- Now this is six years into the job, had you, met MPs by now? - Home ministers?'''
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|'''-''' ''Mmm...'' This is when I – I met them... This is when I met them and ''uhh...'' Really very – from very close. It was a great opportunity, I owe it to the editor, The Statesman, who gave me... It was just one of those chances that I was given. ''Uh,'' two things. One was, of course, my stay with the Beatles. It may- gave me an international profile because no one else was there. And, at the same time, Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan and all the... JP on the one side, Mrs Gandhi on the other. I was right in the middle, very young – they wanted press notes to favour them and for... – and I did nothing, I just wrote articles for The Statesman. (laugh). So I was scooping on – for the Statesman. And …. Now. When Mrs Gandhi split – this is where you story begins. She needed – right wing of the party went away to Jayprakash Narayan and what became the BJP, Morarji and all of that. The... She... had some very pink people with her. Among them was... Kumaramangalam. He was a very ''uhm,'' Oxford, very... member of the communist party in Britain. And, card carrying member, once upon a time. And PN Haksar. And this very – the Left front in India was very powerful. Why was it powerful? Because Soviet Union was still there.
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|18:06
|'''- ''Hmm.'''''
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|'''-''' … So, the internal and the external – there is always... there is always an interplay. You can never analyse politics in India, by itself. There is an external element and so... Mrs Gandhi …. had a deal with Dange - yes, Shripad Dange of the CPI that – and Shripad Dange came out out with a thesis, Mohit Sen was involved, he came out with a thesis... ''uhh,'' Unite and Struggle with the Congress. Unity and Struggle. Which means what? That means we shall unite with the Congress and all the anti-people – whenever it becomes anti-people, we shall struggle against the Congress. So, Unite and Struggle. Now. This, at a time, when the Soviet Union was winning the détente. The Americans in '93, remember? Seventies, is the time they lost Vietnam. Seventies... Angola, became then communist. Seventies... ''uhm...'' Mozambique went communist. Seventies... Ethiopia went communist. Seventies, Nicaragua was communist. The common – the Time magazine had a cover with Enrico Berlinguer, red. Red star over Europe. And ''uhh,'' because, he was knocking at the gates and they did get into government, mind you. And Marchais was the most powerful figure in France. Corrello*in Spain. And there was this huge left surge. Henry Kissinger was talking about a Marxist western Europe. That was the... – why? The joke in Washington DC used to be in those days, and I was in Washington DC, because in '74, I went to Princeton.
|* Santiago Carrillo?
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|20:09
|'''''Mm-hmm.'''''
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|'''''-''' ...''just about the same time. Now, in Washington, the joke was... détente was like going to a wife-swapping party, and coming home alone... You see? The Americans were doing so badly. In everything, all around. ''Uhh...'' And ''uhh,'' that is why, in the internal struggle, Mrs Gandhi had to be weakened. Now, that is my thesis. People will give you - … people will not – ''ehh,'' people give the very straightforward, standard ''nuhh...'' Procedure.
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|20:50
|'''Meaning, you are... saying foreign hand in... -'''
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|I'm not saying foreign hand. I'm not saying foreign hand. I'm saying that foreign interests were definitely involved. I mean, ''uhh,'' Shankar Dayal Sharma. Every now and again, there was a foreig hand, if you remember, Piloo Mody came to the house with, I am a CIA agent. With a plot. Like that... So there was this ''jhagara'' going on. Within the Congress party, within the polity, who's with the Americans, who's with the Soviets. Who's left, who’s right? Why because the – globally, the conflict was becoming very intense, that's what I'm saying. Globally it was beginning to... and therefore, there were, their links were here. I mean, the Communist party was getting money from there – from them. ''Uhh...'' For heaven's sake.
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|21:33
|'''Newspapers were, as well.'''
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|'''-''' Huh?
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|'''- Newspapers were, as well, one imagines... things like this.'''
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|'''-''' Yeah-yeah yeah. So! Mrs Gandhi... Jayprakash Narayan had become a retired seminarist. He was in Gandhian ashrams. He used to look after these, ''uhh,'' he was an arch-Gandhian, from his socialist days. Ramnath Goenka of the Indian Express and Nanaji Deshmukh of the RSS, were good friends, they got together. And they said Indira Gandhi has to be contained. Jayprakash Narayan launched the Bihar movement. I stayed with Jayparkash* Narayan in his house. Why? Because JP had got to know me quite well during the... Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan circuit. So I stayed with him. So I know exactly who – people who were running that show. That show was...
|*par-kash in this instance, for some reason.
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|22:36
|'''- Sasaram.'''
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|'''-''' ''Huh?''
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|'''- Sasaram or...? His home was in a place called Sasaram, no?'''
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|'''-''' ''Ehh,'' no-no. … That was ''ehh,'' Babu Jagjivan Ram. He lived in Patna. In Kadamkuan. Kadamkuan. It was a very ''kayastha –'' he was a ''kayastha.'' So it was a very ''kayastha'' locality where he had his house. He was a vegetarian. But his wife, Prabhavati used to have omelettes cooked for me. That was a concession to me. He was very very fond of me. Me of him. But I found that he was such a naïve person, really. Proximity gave me disillusionment actually, with each of these three chaps. And ''uhh...'' So. Mrs Gandhi through Younus would find out what's going on in JP's parlour. Now, Mrs – what happened was that Jayprakash Narayan, who made the JP movement, the Bihar movement was the right pressure on Indira Gandhi to come to a compact. The split that she had made, thrown away the right, gone with the communists. That should be displaced, make a compact with us, you follow? That was primarily the... the interest. And ''uhh...'' I think. Then ''uhh...'' Per chance... a case came up. She lost that case. About her, her... her government had used some money to put up a platform and so on and so forth. I mean, can you believe it? -
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|24:20
|'''- It was a minor...'''
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|'''-''' ...it was on that, Mrs Gandhi, she was... Because of that, she lost that case in the Allahabad High Court. And Mrs Gandhi was debarred. When she was debarred, Mrs Gandhi was going to out in the wilderness. When Mrs Gandhi was going to be out in the wilderness, Mrs Gandhi's ''chamchas'', all around her, what did they do? Exactly the kind of thing the Congress men do around the Congress – to the Gandhi family today; they rally around her because otherwise, without – without her, they are jobless. Without her, they are in the wilderness. Without her, nothing happens and Siddhartha Shankar Ray sat there and he wrote out this huge ''uhh,'' document. The document – he was a lawyer. ''Uhh...'' Very, high-falooting family from Bengal. He was … S.R. Das's son – grandson, very-very distinguished family. And ''uhh,'' so he... I remember... Now.
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|25:26
|'''- But by this stage, you were in Princeton?'''
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|'''-''' No. By this time, I am getting my documents ready to go to Princeton. So emergency has been declared. And ''uhh,'' now, Younus has become the... become very powerful. The... Mrs Gandhi, she became petrified. It had- had happened, emergency had happened and she didn't know how to cope with it. She was a very petrified lady. I've seen her. It is poppycock that she was right on top – rubbish. She was so damned scared that you would not believe it. Sharada Parshad was the press officer for Mrs Gandhi, but Younus took over. So I remember, Sharada Parshad sitting there, Younus sitting with Mrs Gandhi. He – media was all, bourgeois. Media was all jute-pressed. Media was all – was all run by big industry. Big industry wanted Indira out and they were supporting JP, so the new press had to come around. And he, during the emergency, persuaded Mr Purie, Mr Purie's's father. ''Uhh...'' Y. K. Puri, whatever his name was*. He used to drive a Rolls Royce in those days, and . He used to drive a Rolls Royce in those days, and ''uhh...'' Aroon Purie's's father... So. India Today was launched as a magazine to sell the emergency regime and that it will be a glossy – it will be a glossy magazine where... which will – The new India, which otherwise the Right India, which was JP has won(?) (cough). Now. I needed some money. Younus, he was so close to me that he wanted me to take over something in... Press Trust India, ''yeh-woh...'' I was telling him, I've got a fellowship in Princeton, I'm going there. He said do – why don't you do an interview, with Mrs Gandhi -
|<nowiki>- Sharada Prasad.</nowiki>

<nowiki>*</nowiki> V. V. Purie?
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|'''- Ah.'''
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|27:50
|'''-''' Now! That was the most priceless interview in the world! Because, here she had declared the emergency, and she was inaccessible and I had the access. So I … said okay. I offered... I used to... Now, there is another thing here. In 1967, I had gone for a training period in London, where I jumped the ship and joined the Sunday Times, as a feature writer. So I had a stint there. But I gave up the job. They offered me job, with Times of London – Sunday Times is... a weekly thing but you can take a regular job with Times... I – Aruna, went to ask for Evening Standard and ''uhh,'' there used to be two evening papers; Evening Standard and Evening News. And she said – and he gave her Evening News. And a... she said, no, I want Evening Standard. He said ''pfft! –'' next you ask for Hindustan Times. Aruna came home, she said, pack up, we are not staying here any longer. So, all that time-''shime –'' just on that one incident. We packed up and we... came back. So, that's another aside, mind. My thing with the Sunday Times in England. Now. Which was another very colourful. Very-very spectacular years. Two years.
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|'''- ''Hmm.'''''
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|'''-''' ''Uhh...'' so, I was, they made me stringer when I came here for the Sunday times. So I had this link. So I said, Mrs Gandhi is giving me an interview. Fantastic! So, I went there. And I asked her questions. She wouldn't answer. And ''uhh...'' ''Boliye-boliye-boliye! Likhiye-likhiye-likhiye!'' Younus. So I said, ''kya likhiye?'' ''Arey? Woh keh rahin hain- woh keh rahin hain, na!'' ''Aa-aap boliye na, kuchh? Arey, likhiye-likhiye!'' In other words, he’s creating an illusion, there was an interview going on- there wasn't. -
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|30:01
|'''- Meaning there was silence or she was just avoiding... –'''
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|'''-''' ...there was complete silence – she just-just didn't say any – So he said, come to my room. Now listen, this is an amazing story – come to my room. You write the questions. And... write the answers. We'll show it to her. I said, this strange performance. So I wrote the questions and I wrote the answers – I wrote the answers! I wrote the questions. And I wrote the answers that she – playing her role. And I gave it to her and she … just signed it, it's an amazing... –
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|30:31
|'''- But but... –'''
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|'''- …''' it's an amazing-amazing story...
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|'''- It is amazing! But... –'''
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|'''-''' Now-now listen to this: So! When, I sent it off to the Sunday Times, I said, Thanks! For brilliant interview, trenchant questions! And, deep, long winded answers.
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|'''- I... –'''
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|'''-''' ''Yeh! Woh!'' And a bag of gold follows. You see, stringers used to get paid on the basis of the story. Very good. Bag of gold. Now, Younus being the idiot that he was, he thought he would score twice with one interview. And he would then, become the big hero. So, what did the bastard do? There used to be a fellow called Gauri Shankar Joshi with the BBC, retired. He – and he was having a little affair with his wife... –
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|'''- With whose wife?'''
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|'''-''' ''Uhh,'' Gauri Shankar's wife.
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|'''- ''Achha,'' Younus was.'''
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|'''-''' Yeah, Younus was. Younus was a little ''ttharki,'' he used to go around pawing lots of women. He was a very funny chap, though. I had lovely eve- tales with him. So he... called Gauri Shankar Joshi. He said, interview ''bhejiye! Aap usko bhehiye,'' Observer ''ko.'' Now. London has two Sunday newspapers. The Sunday Times and The Observer. He had scored with me. The bastard goes and gives the transcript of the same fucking interview to Gauri Shankar Joshi. Who, in those days – he had become a drunk. And who's-, ''theek hai.'' He offered through some link- because he had been in the BBC in London. So he had some link to Observer. So, he offered, they agreed. He said sent off the bloody interview to the Observer, can you believe it! The same fucking interview...–
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|32:17
|'''- It appeared!'''
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|'''-''' … appearing in two bloody competitive newspapers. And that bag of gold and everything – my name was mud! And I turned up in England. So I had to explain the whole thing to them. This is what happened – this is what happened. Anyway, that's another story. It's a story I have to write some-some day. ''Uhh...'' now. Where's the proof? Where is the proof that all of this happened? You're-you're just listening to me, isn't it? But goes to Sunday Times on a certain time, you'll have this big-big interview, that very week, you go to the Observer. You'll have it much smaller, but the interview's there in the Observer. So, that was – that was Indira Gandhi. So, she was not as tough and as, sort of, …-
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|33:09
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''But you felt she was being silent just out of discomfort, not out of anger or anything at the questions you were asking?'''
|
|-
|
|No. No no, no-no. She was very afraid. Mrs Gandhi was very afraid. Mrs Gandhi did not know what she had done. Mrs Gandhi's son... Sanjay, had gone and done various things... –
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''The son was not hanging around? -'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- … she just didn't know, she was like this. She was like this. She was …- I have never known a person more afraid. She couldn't utter a word. Can you believe it that she asked me, that he said you write – I wrote the questions, I wrote the answers and I showed them to her, and I don't think she even read them, she said, </nowiki>''theek hai, karo.'' ''Mera mind nahi ch-'' work ''kar raha'' - I mean more or less said that. That was Indira Gandhi.
|
|-
|33:55
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''And Sanjay was not loitering around at that time?'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- No, no Sanjay was not. But outside was Siddhartha Shankar Ray. And a very pathetic figure of </nowiki>''nuhh...'' this fellow … her press officer, very distinguished man, I felt very sorry for him actually. You see Younus was a very good friend of mine, yes... – I will not say – he was very loyal to me. He wanted, if I had stayed on here, I would have been screwed. Because I would have become a crony of the... emergency. You see? Because I was so close to him. So, I used it. Got – Now! Comes the other story. The media. I had, during my... this period, I – there was a war. I had gone with ''oh-ho-ho-ho...'' After Mrs Gandhi lost, the Janata party came to power. Morarji Desai became the Prime Minister. The Foreign Minister was Atal Bihari Vajpayee. He became fond of me. I became – I had a rapport with him. So I used to – Now...
|
|-
|35:21
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''You had returned by '77?'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- By – by... I'm mixing up dates! </nowiki>''Uhh,'' 60's, I'm in London.
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''That we've got but you went in '74 or '75 to... Princeton?'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- '74. '75!</nowiki>
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''<nowiki/>'75, must be. Yeah. And returned?'''
|
|-
|
|And returned, '77.
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Okay. Just after emergency or in those last months? Before the elections? ''Hmm.'''''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- Why. Why why why why. Why. Because... Raghu Rai...</nowiki>

(''Arey, dekho, umm,'' Sharma! Sharma? ''Beta, hamara telephone wahan rakha hoga, woh zara sa le aao. Aur mai tumhe btata hoon, yeh dawa daur ke le aao. Warna mai mar jaunga.'' Norflox TZ. Which is not... Metrogyl. Metrogyl you can't booze. But this, for the new years' season is a concession of the...

….)
|(Interruption)
|}

Audio 2:

kf_snaqvi_raw_191215_3.wav [III]

{| class="wikitable"
|'''TimeCode'''
|'''Transcription'''
|'''Remarks'''
|-
|'''37:35 [I]'''
|KF: -… '''that's great but I want the details – when and how you came back. In seventy... seven.'''
|
|-
|
|SN: First, I came back from England, alright? That's one return. As soon as I came back, there was the two stories that took place. One story was the Beatles. And the other story was * that happened after my return from Sunday Times and Times London, alright? Now...

''(ek'' second, ''bach gaya...'' Oflox TZ. )
|*
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Not Norflox? Orflox.'''
|
|-
|
|'''-''' Oflox! Yes...
|(Interruption untranscribed)
|-
|01:05
|'''- ''Haan'', ''aage btaiye.'''''
|
|-
|
|'''-''' So... now let me get...- that's why, I had not prepared.
|
|-
|
|'''- Yeah.'''
|
|-
|
|'''-''' ''Uhh...'' All my sequencing are... then came the emergen- then came ''uhh...'' Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan. Then came the split in the Congress party. Then came JP's movement. Then came the emergency. During the – just before, between that – in that period, ''ehm uhh...'' Raghu Rai took me to Gaylord's for a meeting with Aroon Purie. Aroon Purie made me the managing editor of ''uhh...'' India Today. And I became – he gave me a letter of appointment. I became editor of India Today. Why? Because, I – he was very well in with the emergency people. I knew Sanjay, I knew... Younus very well. And I knew Mrs Gandhi. So therefore I was … if you knew them... anyway. So he signed, I said I can't take over job just now, I have to go with my assignment to Princeton. Once I have completed that assignment, you keep it and I – I will come back and I shall. So I did not want to actually, basically, I did not want to come back during the emergency. Because I'd been caught one way or the other. So I stayed there. The government changed. I received a big, long– in those days there were teleprinter message – long one. Big – legal. Legally is – why I was a rotten fellow and why I'd not told them something, and I was a crook and I was a swindler, I was a... – why? I had to be sacked.
|
|-
|02:53
|'''- From – India Today.'''
|
|-
|
|'''-''' From India Today. Because the government had changed -
|
|-
|
|'''- Lovely.'''
|
|-
|
|You follow? So... Now! I said what the fuck do I do? So my father went and met his – my father was a lawyer at that point*. He went and met Mr Purie's father and threatened them with dire consequences of – for which in those days, is not bad for me. He gave me sixty-five thousand rupees to- hush money. Not bad. So I got … I got sixty-five thousand... (laughs).
|*Unclear
|-
|03:24
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Superb.'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- For having not – having these people having backed out... (here's) the media. During the emergency, I had – during that period, seventies, I had gone with </nowiki>''uhh...'' Atal Bihari Vajpayee to China. He was being advised not to go to China... –
|
|-
|03:47
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Sorry, this is which year?'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- We are talking about 1978. </nowiki>
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Achha,''''' '''okay. When he's foreign minister. ''Hmm.'''''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- When he was Foreign Minister. So, 1978. He was going to China. </nowiki>''Uhh...'' I joined him in China. He wanted me to be there. There was a delegation, three-four, four journalists. Me among them. N. Ram of The Hindu, myself and two or three others. Those – that's where the first day... First time in China when China was beginning to open. There was one hotel for Indians, one hotel for Chinese, one for Taiwanese and one for foreigners. Strange. It was... –
|
|-
|04:28
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''N. Ram's China affection was already established by then or is this what did it?'''
|
|-
|'''05:31'''

'''06:01'''
|<nowiki>- … it was established then, yes. Very much so. There's a picture of me and Ram (?) when we met in the great hall of the people. Anyway... So. Atal Bihari Vajpayee, had been advised by the Indian Ambassador in Beijing, not to undertake the journey because the Chinese were about to teach Vietnam a lesson. Chinese were about teach Vietnam a lesson. And he was going there- because in those days, we were very in with the Soviet Union to somehow bridge this China – if you remember, bridge, China-Vietnam thing. We were going to persuade China to do – how pompous of us to imagine that we could do that. When we were there... in Hangchow*. </nowiki>''Uhh...'' Subhash Chakravarty of the Times of India, called up Girilal Jain and said how are the stories appearing? He said, side stories are doing very well in the... Indian Express – I was then with the Indian Express. And... ''uhh,'' that appointment has to be told to you, by god – that's something about the media. ''Uhh...'' And ''uhh,'' there's a small story somewhere – there's been an invasion. Says, invasion? Because we were there to block. Chinese had invaded Vietnam. And 1978. And... Subhash went to Jagat Mehta's room, Jagat! There's been an invasion. The battle is on. Jagat went to ask. The Chinese had not even – the Chinese had not even had the courtesy... They were five Foreign Ministers at that time. Had-had informed the Yugoslav Foreign Minister. They did not even inform us. And they went and slapped them. Next day, a very long-faced Atal Bihari Vajpayee, ''uhh... …'' took a – I think it was a boat, from Hong Kong and then... I! Was always very adventurous. I said let's see if we can find out if we can see the war from this end. So, the Chinese said, yes. So, Ram also stayed on. And I stayed on. That we'll go and see the war. And ''uhh'', but after two days, they said no. This is not possible. That's a signal. I went to Bangkok. Abid Husain was then there with ICRISAT or something. One of the UN bodies in – in ''uhh...'' Bangkok.
|(?) Slight mumble.

<nowiki>*</nowiki> Guess
|-
|07:39
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Bangkok.'''
|
|-
|
|I said, Abid ''bhai'', I need a visa. To go to Shanghai*. In his office, There happened to be a member of the Bau Dai family. Bau Dais were the big aristrocrats of Vietnam. And who had been in prision and … … his hands had been placed on ice and so on... and he told him. Next day he says resolved*. Can yo believe it, how connection was... Abid ''bhai.'' I owe it to Abid ''bhai'', this was a big, big story for me. And he... I was onto... I was the only, only effing journalist in Hanoi at that moment. Now. Two things here. They immediately – I met the Secretary General of the communist party of Vietnam, I – they, I, they – I was treated – they all used to take over. I mean, you coulnd't be independent. You lived in the palatial, I was told not to play for any monkey games. Those very pretty women, all wives of the Central Committee. … … They sent me to Lang Son. The battle of Lang Son was the crucial battle. I saw the battle and anyone – I knew nothing about equipment, but I could see the jubiliation on this side and the battered equipment on that side. And I concluded that China has been taught a lesson. Alright? I came back and I wrote that. And it was a global scoop. But! When I came back to Delhi, I thought I will be all... –
|Assumption. It sounds like Shanghai.

<nowiki>*</nowiki>Guess at word.
|-
|09:37
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Shabashi. Hmm.'''''
|
|-
|
|Ramnath Goenka says, ''beta!'' A story should neither – you see, should neither be too early nor too late. What had happened? What had happened was, that the Henry Kissinger's opening through Bhutto, to Beijing had just started. The Americans had adopted China – there were creating a triangular relationship, that it was... Washington, Moscow. They had introduced Beijing. And Beijing was going to be with them. So they were creating a triangular balance of power, favouring them! And, the world media is controlled by them. At that moment, to play out on the world media, that the Chinese had been beaten by the Vietnamese, was totally contra to their global purposes. Have you seen that? So that story was – it was just a ''naqqakhane mey tuti ki awaaz'' – me. I had written it. It was a scoop. No one was – they just ignored you. The international system... –
|
|-
|10:51
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''But it was published.'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- It was – </nowiki>''oh-oh!'' … in the Indian Express. But that story should have made global headlines. You know? That comes only with, if it appears in the New York Times. That’s the point I'm making.
|
|-
|11:10
|'''You have to tell the... - how you got the job.'''
|
|-
|
|'''-''' ''Hmm?''
|
|-
|
|'''- How you got the job with the – with Express.'''
|
|-
|
|''Uh,'' yeah. How I got the job at the Express. ''Uhh,'' when – during Badshah Khan's visit, a very wonderful – well, actually very crooked, but he became a very wonderful friend of mine. Was a fellow called S. Radhakrishnan. Radhakrishnan was the General Secretary of the Gandhi Peace Foundation. Now, these were all RSS and Gandhians and all- they were actually one and the same. I used to go to him. One day I was sitting with him and he had worked it out in such a way that I would visit him for coffee and RNG would come in. RNG sat there. Within a minute, Naqbi, oh! good boy. You come join me. Join me. I think you can look after Morarji ''bhai''. You can look after – right then, ''khut-khut-khut-khut,'' he decided that I was going to look after Morarji Desai, I was going to look after Atal Bihari Vajpayee, Babu Jagjivan... – you see, South Block, Defence Ministry, Foreign Office, PMO. All of that. And Parliament. Can you believe it? All of that … - in Radhakrishnan's house has been handed to me.
|
|-
|12:38
|''-'' '''This is a 1977 story also?'''
|
|-
|
|''-'' Nineteen... Seventy Five, yes. No-no-no-no...
|
|-
|
|''-'' '''<nowiki/>'77?'''
|
|-
|
|''-'' 1977. '77. The – the... little later.
|
|-
|
|''-'' '''New government.'''
|
|-
|
|''-'' … So I went to … Ramnath Goenka used to stay... Indian Express office. On ''uhh,'' Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg, the corner of that house, on the ground floor. Was his little... –
|
|-
|
|''-'' '''Penthouse. Or flat.'''
|
|-
|
|''-'' ...not penthouse. It was a little corner house. So I – he called me, I went in there. I will never forget it. He never wore normal underwear, he used to wear, old-style ''langot''. So there is this old man, with his back towards me, and he's asked for Kuldip … …

''(ab mai mar jaun toh mar jaun, beta, dekha jayega.'')
|Interruption.
|-
|13:48
|''-'' '''The ''langot'' of ...'''
|
|-
|
|''-'' He... Kuldip Nayar was then the editor of the Express service. He did not take such liberties with S. Mulgaonkar. Ramnath Goenka. Mulgaonkar knew how to mangae him. But all the others used to treat them just like shit. Kuldip is called in. Here is the proprietor, tying his ''langot'', and Kuldip Iis sitting there. Kuldip! ''Apne... yeh'' Naqvi ''ko...'' ''Apne...'' PM, Morarji ''bhai,'' ''de de rahein hain.'' I think it's alright by you. ''Aur isko dedein yeh'' – all... Kuldip there is going to argue? This fellow tying a ''langot,'' no-no-no I think it's wrong. That is how I was appointed. He expected me to – now. He says, I will, I will take you to Morarji ''bhai''. He became very fond of me suddenly. He used to drive his own Fiat. He used to make me sit with him. Lonely chap on some days. Made me sit with him. He'd drive to the temple opposite Red Fort. Go out, fiddle with the gods. Come back and take me here and there. I said, Ramnath ji, at your age, you drive your own car. He said, look here. Naqbi, Naqbi... Naqbi, ''dekho'', driver ''jo hai, woh saale bade harami – sab dekh le rahein, kahan jaun mai?'' You know, if you go – your girlfriend... ''biwi ko bta denge, biwi ko bta'' – that was his kind of jokes. So... ''ek toh usko pata tha. Doosre,'' it keeps the reflexes very... true * He was very alert and so he said. One day he said, Morarji ''ke paas chalenge,'' I want to introduce you to Morarji. Now, I was very young. Very young for those sorts of jobs. And ''uhh,'' I always looked younger than my years, but then I was … So then I started wearing glasses. ''Jhoot-mootth ke'' glasses for greater … gravitas.
|* noise
|-
|'''16:12'''
|''-'' '''Gravitas.'''
|(In synchrony)
|-
|
|''-''… you know? Very ''jhoot-moot'' ''bilkul glass pehen ke.'' He had a Studebaker also. Which – upholstery was that of Khadi, white thick khadi. Very Gandhian. And ''uhh,'' and so we sat together. Told me about the family and so on. We went to Morarji Desai’s house. The Prime Minister’s house. ­­Went past tongte…

''Arey! Jara… kunwari?'' Sharma? ''Yaar ek, mujhe yeh…''
|(short break, untranscribed)
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''…''haan.'' Took you to the house.'''
|
|-
|
|So, Tonpei* used to be his secretary and he became a very good friend of mine, Tonpei did. So we went past Tonpei. And now there is Morarji Desai. On his left – he’s ona settee. On his left, there is a table – low – full of jars…
|*name unfamiliar.
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Oh no.'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- … of nuts. With nuts and herbal this and that. All over there. Now he is sitting there. Nuts are over there. And this fellow goes in. And you won’t believe it, one of the biggest shocks of my life. This fellow lies down and his hands are touching Morarji’s feet. </nowiki>
|
|-
|
|'''Oh.'''
|
|-
|'''18:21'''
|''Hmm.'' Ramnath Goenka is a proprietor, editor, great newspaper tycoon. He just did what is called, ''shashthang*''. There’s some word for it.
|Naqvi pronounces it,

“शाषतांग”.
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Prostration. Yeah.'''
|
|-
|
|Lying down on his belly just like that. His hands touching Morarji’s feet. I had never seen power this close, power being played. And he says “Morarji bhai!” and he got up. Morarji Bhai, ''yeh'' Naqbi, I think he’ll be alright. He will look after your office. He’s a very very bright boy. Morarji, whatever he may have said. He said you may go. That’s it.
|
|-
|19:03
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Wow.'''
|
|-
|
|That was the great journalist. Great Prime Minister. Great fucking… That’s how I was appointed. And now this became very problematic because he expected me to with him every morning. I said, Ramnath ji, all my colleagues will hold it against me. I will be known as your ''chamcha''. And this was this the difference between me and Sho-Shourie, came just a little later. Shourie. ''Mujhse saala kahe,'' bring your wife, bring your wife also. Have breakfast with me. One day I took her. She said ''aur apne saheliyon ko lao.'' (laughs) So that was the end of it. But Shourie continued. He and Mrs Shourie used to go there every morning. But me, I said, Ramnath ji, I can’t go because, you know, I feel terrible with my colleagues. Sitting with you all the time. I have to live with them, ''yaar''. Really. Exactly that.
|
|-
|20:07
|'''Meanwhile had you… –'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- But </nowiki>''us se pehle suno.'' ''Usse pehle, emergency.'' Shri Khushwant Singh is the editor of Hindustan Times. He is being given a job by Aveek Sarkar before his Hindustan Times job as editor New Delhi magazine. I don’t think it lasted very long. New Delhi Magazine. All the pictures that I had taken from my box, baby brownie from Vietnam. I didn’t know where to use so I gave it to him. Now I’d been looking for old copies of ''uhh…'' New Delhi magazine. I can’t find them. That’s the only place with my Vietnam scoop. I told him. I’ve been seeing Dileep Padgaonkar as my number two. Whereas you willing, I’d prefer you. I said, I’ll come with you. He said, ''uhh…'' secrecy… –
|
|-
|21:35
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''And this is – which year is this? That he takes over HT. Cause he’s left Illustrated Weekly clearly…'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- I’m wondering. I’m wondering. I’m wondering. … - </nowiki>
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''This is well post emergency.'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- This is actually, </nowiki>''uhh,'' hang on, no. He… there are two spells with him. He said do you know Sanchay? I said, yeah I know him those days… So the… that was… I had two spells with him. Two spells with the Hindustan Times. Two rounds. ''Uhh…'' one was, ah. You see, all the people… I had such a run of Defence Ministry and PM and I was being an independent journalist. I was scooping everybody. In those days, Saeed Naqvi was – Delhi was abuzz; Saeed Naqvi! And this created, by which time Shourie had come into the Indian Express. And two things happened. First, they knew how nimble I was in corridors of power. And I used to enjoy it, I had my easy manner. I got along great with them, all sorts of people. From left extremists to bloody RSS, all sorts. They thought that when Mrs Gandhi…
|
|-
|23:32
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Came back.'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- No no. </nowiki>''Nahi nahi, yeh nahi tha. Yeh hua ki'' foreign office ''ke scoops hone lage bohut. Bohut zyada.'' Far too many scoops. And this is the government. This is Ramnath Goenka’s government. This is our government. They didn’t want any scooping. You see? Scooping was not the order of the day. And things that were critical of the… And there were dissenters in the Defence Ministry, Foreign Ministry, who used to, ''chitkari charha ke,'' brief me. And show me papers, share documents, ''dhar dhar dhar…''
|
|-
|24:18
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Leak.'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- They were appearing every day, big big stories. Very big stories. Even Mulgaonkar got a little worried. So, it was decided that Saeed Naqvi has to be reined in. The proposition came from Arun Shourie. That this fellow’s having – he’s becoming too powerful in Delhi. He can’t sack me but we have to give something big. So, why don’t we send him as su de lar* of Deccan. </nowiki>
|*unfamiliar term
|-
|25:05
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Hyderabad?'''
|
|-
|
|Hyderabad. So… I resisted that. I said this is mala fide. Because this is my turf. And I mean everybody but everybody knew me and I knew everybody and I could get the news. But this was completely mala fide. But they wanted it, that’s it. The newspapers… I came from the culture of newspaper which was the Statesman. The line given to us was the following: In a democracy, the people bring a government into power. An independent newspaper’s job is not to quarrel with the people’s verdict but to accord, quote, critical support, to the establishment on an issue by issue basis. That was the line. Whether it was the VHP or whether it was the Congress or whether it was the Naxalites, whoever came to power, the job of the independent editor was to accord support on an issue by issue basis. What Saeed Naqvi was doing… was following the same way. I – to this day, to this day I couldn’t change myself. If a story was going this way, then that is the way it will go. ''Usko yoon'' inflection ''de ke…'' can’t do it. ''Thoda sa…'' I – after all newspapers are owned by people, ''itna'' consideration otherwise… It has to be balanced. That’s me, that’s me. It’s my soul.
|
|-
|27:20
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''But Goenka never reprimanded you, I think, he just… –'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- Never, never. But these… </nowiki>''chamchas'' around him began to lobby. This newspaper is a South Indian newspaper, after all. We must go and repair it there. Now. Then, I went running to Khushwant. I said, Khushwant – so that was- this is the sequence. I went to Giri. Girilal Jain. Girilal Jain said something very very interesting and valuable. He said, look, Saeed – he also was very fond of me. He said, look, Saeed, over exposure is not good. I was really… I was all over the place, you have no idea. You probably were very young. There has not been a spell in Indian journalism where one person dominated the whole damn thing. It was like that. Scoop! Scoop! Piermont, Defence Ministry, Parliament … ''yeh-woh!'' And so effortless. He said, look, Saeed. I said that’s what it’s all about. Have you seen Kuldip Nayar? Kuldip Nayar, according to Giri, didn’t have much prestige. He never really did. I mean, the prestige that Mulgaonkar had, Giri had, Kuldip could never have. Kuldip had been around a long while as a good-hearted… secularist – professional secularist… So, if you’re getting institutional power, I remember that phase, take it. So I stayed… so you are now going to be Resident Editor. That’s not my temperament. I want to be a solo report. That’s my temperament. Dr Saba, exactly the same. So… ''wahan pe,'' I discovered the Indian Express empire was bipolar.
|
|-
|29:58
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Hmm.'''''
|
|-
|
|There was Goddard Law*, who was managing director…
|*guess
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''You took the post?'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- I took the post. I went to Hyderabad. Because he said I have to get it clear. He asked me to go and see Birla. He says, </nowiki>''kisi ko btana nahi''. So I went to see Birla in that summer, with the pinstriped suit. And sitting on elevated ground, I went and met him. And I came back and the news leaked, And there was sort of spinning thing that I was waiting for Khushwants’ note to me in ''uhh...'' Hyderabad. Then there was no note and there was no note and there was no note. Now. What had happened was - because before that, Dilip ''uhh… Sudhir Dar, the'' cartoonit and ''uhh''… there was a muslim fellow who was Fareed Zakaria’s uncle or something – what was his name…?
|
|-
|31:01
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Rashid…? No… Rafique…? Zakaria…'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>''Uhh!'' Rafique’s his father. ''Uhm…''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''In HT? Not Al Talib?'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- Talib! Rasheed Talib. So, Rasheed Talib and Sudhir Dar took me for lunch at IIC. And they said, Saeed, it’s fine. Come as an assistant editor, as I am. But don’t come as deputy editor. That would be resisted. What had happened? I am not coming anywhere. It had been leaked. There had been a huge… Now. Rafique’s wife…</nowiki>
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Rasheed’s wife?'''
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>''Uhh…'' Rafique Zakaria’s wife who’s his sister. Rasheed Talib’s sister ''uhh'' was, a great favourite – hot favourite of Khushwant Singh. So she operated on Khushwant Singh to have this thing nullified. This is what I found out later. So Khushwant would write to me. I held that against him. Because I had gone there on the condition because it was all on – it was done. Didn’t work out. … got leaked. I settled down. Stayed in Secunderabad club. Aruna was here. And… Domalguda was where the. Do you know Hyderabad?
|
|-
|
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''No, I was born there but…'''
|
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>''Arey-re-re-re…'' Quite nice city. Ah! What these ''chutiyas'' never realised is that Mrs Gandhi had lost the North. But the South was with her. Chenna Reddy was the Chief Minister in Hyderabad and Devraj Hans was the Chief Minister in Karnataka, this – the power-play in – Indian Express forgot this. I remembered this. I went to Sanjay. I said, Sanjay, I’m being sacked. They’re sending me to Hyderabad. He said – you see he had this habit of not looking you in the eye. You go and meet Mr Hashim, you go and meet so and so… Like a dada, like a gangster. He gave me names. Hashim was the Home Minister’s... Believe you me and he sent word. And I landed in Hyderabad. ''Behenchod'', the entire cabinet was there to receive me. And I said what the fuck. That was power. That was power. The entire…
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|34:06
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Say a little more about Sanjay if you can and…'''
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|<nowiki>- Sanjay was – he was a gangster boy. He exuded power. He was very fearless. He was smarter than the elder brother, I think. But he was smarter… he would have fitted in very well with say, the </nowiki>''uhh…'' the gangsters in Bombay. There was a gangster in him. You know? He was ''uhh…'' there was nothing decent, democracy about him. None of that family has even been educated. O I don’t think he has ever been mellowed in education. He was very rough. He was extremely… he was – one sardarji used to repair cars in some part in delhi before that. I remember him being some kind of a mechanic. That was his – then he went and promoted himself and worked for Rolls Royce or something. Exactly the same kind of thing. So, Sanjay was a tough fellow. Sanjay, people respected him for his – for his ''uhh…''
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Drive.'''
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|'''35:56'''
|<nowiki>- for his drive. And </nowiki>''uhh…'' he was – I’m giving you an example. I just mentioned to him. I said I’ve been had by my office. They’re sending me, completely mala fide. They’re sending me to – just at the time when I was in full flight here. They fixed me. Shourie did. And that – they sent me into Hyderabad. So he meet so and so… like that. But, what would you – you wouldn’t expect this; the whole cabinet? Short of the Chief Minister is there. And therefore I had a field day there. So I had such access et cetera that the managing director of the paper this his daughter-in-law got very impressed. She came charging to Hyderabad. And she saw the Hyderabad edition was looking rather good. Because you know if the state helps you, you get all the advertisements. These were Baniyas, they were measuring, ads were coming everything. She said you have such brilliant ideas, why don’t you look after all six of our editions. So I said, all six of our editions? Bangalore, Hyderabad, Vijayawada, Cochin, ''uhh…'' Madurai… Madras. Vishakhapatnam opened later. With headquarters, which is where she lived in his bungalow. Said I’ll give youa bungalow there. So, I was given a bungalow there. You bastards didn’t know where to look. We had sent him there to cook his goose, this ''matherchod'' has become a ''uhh'' boss.
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|37:21
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Institutional power ''mil gaya.'''''
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|Exactly as –
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Girilal.'''
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|<nowiki>- Girilal Jain had said. So… I went there. Can you imagine a muslim Saeed Naqvi, the solitary muslim in the entire chain of newspapers there as boss with people with </nowiki>''naamam'' here and ''naamam'' there. And ash here and… it was – I was… And how I survived and lived and enjoyed myself is the Catholicism that I had imbibed from my hometown of Lucknow. It came in full play there. I loved it.
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Hyderabad ''bhi koi kam nahi hai.'''''
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|<nowiki>- Huh?</nowiki>
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|'''I said, Hyderabad ''bhi koi kam nahi hai.'''''
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|So… therefore, that became a completely bipolar – these people didn’t know. Ultimately, there was a – in 1982, there were conversions in Meenakshipuram. Mr Shourie and Gurumurthy, when they couldn’t get me out of the South because they thought I was an influence on Mrs Goenka and they couldn’t get around her. S they thought the only thing that would hit Ramnath Goenka was religion. Saeed Naqvi – the accusation was – Saeed Naqvi was tinkering witht the Meenakshipuram conversions. Can yo believe it? That this is how low people here involving Mr Shourie could sink that an allegation against me was made – that I had somehow manufactured a conversion of muslims. That is how deep the ''yuddha'' was, in Indian Express. And I survived it. The reason why that came about is because S. Nihal Singh had become the editor of the Indian Express. He, being a completely no-nonsense quasi-Englishman. He said, can you write a story on Meenakshipuram. I wrote an editorial. What is there to be excited about? Some people have crossed from here to there. Basically, there’s a structural violence in Hindu society, exactly the Statesman training. They wrote back. Next morning, the bloody managing editor, manging director – a fellow called Mahadevan – an RSS fellow – was hopping up and down. How can you – you are a secular?! How can you be doing this? How can you write this… So the whole bloody RSS thing boomeranged on me. That I was supporting.
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|40:13
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''But you were hearing this from Delhi, cause…'''
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|<nowiki>- No, no. There. </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''In Hyderabad, itself?'''
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|<nowiki>- No, no. I had gone to Chennai. Hyderabad I lived for six months. </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Achha,''''' '''the bungalow was in – sorry. In Chennai. Madras.'''
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|<nowiki>- Chennai. I was in Madras. I was … every week I would toodle off to Bangalore, here, there. Oh, the fun I had. These people didn’t know whether I was coming or going. They didn’t know how to get rid of me. They tried this. Then? They said, oh </nowiki>''dekho – yeh likha hai isne!'' ''Likha tha. Lekin yeh thodi tha ki usne jaake, wahan jaake'' conversion ''kiya.'' This is the allegation!. Anyway, in 1984, I resigned from the Statesman, I gave -
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''From the Express.'''
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|<nowiki>- From the Express. Why? I gave Ramnath Goenka a proposal. You see this had been gestating in my mind that I haven’t told you my years in Princeton as a foreign editor of Boston Globe and as school committee reporter for C’est La Vie* evening news. You don’t know but that is autobiography. That is autobiography. That is sensational part of my life. </nowiki>''Uhm'', oh my god. And Aruna standing by me like a rock. What life we had. What a life! If I got a chance again, what will you do? I’ll go back the same route. Great ''tha''. So…
|* guess
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''’84, you were saying. You said you had a proposal… –'''
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|<nowiki>- ’84… ’84, I had given a proposal. You see, what had struck me in the Sunday Times is, that Murray Sayle, there’s a Biafran war going on in Nigeria. Murray Sayle goes to that window. Collects – rings up the fellow to buy his ticket to Nigeria and back, and goes and dollects his money and check. And there he is, by that evening, he’s on his way to Heathrow, off.. I said, so easy to cover world affairs. I said when will we cover world affairs? Ramnath Goenka. You know, I used to from – Jayewardene used to ring me up.</nowiki>
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|42:34
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Hmm.'''''
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|<nowiki>- And he says, and he used to invite me. And, Ramnath Goenka: </nowiki>''fauran jao! Fauran jao!'' I’m in Madras. It’s twenty-minute flight to Colombo to meet JRJ. I could go to Delhi, Kashmir, back to Chennai and back twice over in the day. It’s all kosher*. But talk of going to Colombo? ''Fauran jao! Fauran jao!'' That means you want to travel foreign all the time. Indian fixation. Foreign ''jao.'' Foreign ''jao.'' So I said, Ramnath ji, unless we cover foreign affairs, it is pathetic that after so many years after independence, we take BBC, CNN, Reuters as our… staple. Unless you look at the word from your own eyes, the world will not respect you. You must cover the world. I have seen – I know that Britain had an entire, and so they have that interest. And we were part of that empire so we do not have that… I said, that logic should not work. We must have… Genius! Genius! Proposal. ''Yeh-woh.'' He gave it to George Verghese. Verghese said PTI covers it. George ''toh yeh keh raha hai.'' My friend, Arun Bharat Ram. I said, Arun, this is my proposal. Can you finance it? Just see me through? He did. ''Usse pehle,'' there was another planter in Kerala who came forward. They saw me through – they launched the world report. What was the world report? My friend, Arun … Shourie – Chacko did. Because I have no managerial skill. None, none, none whatsoever. So I got him in. The idea was that we will … our money. We will go to if … * .. between Reagan and Gorbachev. We did that. And we’ll come that and on a non-competitive basis, we’ll syndicate it. Here, and gradually everywhere. The whole subcontinent. And why not beyond? It worked! It worked! But. But. We were everywhere. The collections were zero. So then you have to go and chase the bloody people for collection and money. Then Doordarshan opened up. I came with this proposal to Doordarshan. Doordarshan became a solitary source of money. That – in those days, low bad camera, and two bloody sound recordists were… but boy did I… –
|* indiscernible
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|45:38
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''The NDTV thing had started by now…? The World This Week… –'''
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|<nowiki>- No, no, no, no. Nothing had started. In those days, Doordarshan was the only thing. And, I had persuaded – Rajiv had become Prime Minister. I knew him. And Rajiv was very good with me. </nowiki>''Yeh Suman-vuman, divya-dhara, koi nahi the.'' ''Sabse pehle usne mujhse kaha tha'' to take over his press work. I went to Gopi Arora, I said, listen, ''yaar''… can you see me working from nine to five in the evening? … Feudal weaknesses, I’m very happy. One person. I’ll help you much more – if five people like me, a hundred people dislike me, all the hatred of the Statesman will come onto this job. Don’t – don’t offer me these job. Believe you me, ''aap kisi se kaho… toh'' they won’t believe. I don’t know whether you believe me or not. Because when you tell people this story, they can’t believe … ''woh chood diya?'' But people can be indifferent, believe you me. I must have been made the stuff in my village… yes. I knew that I couldn’t do it and I would fauil. ''Subah nau baje se raat ko baarah baje tak –'' I’m not that, made of that stuff. ''Shaam ko saat bje.'' Look at me, I’ve changed my medicine.
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Achha, mil gaya ab?''''' '''Oflox has come. Good… So then you were doing a weekly show for…–'''
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|<nowiki>- Then Doordarshan opened. And Doordarshan </nowiki>''se maine yeh kehke… –''
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''This would be around which year?'''
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|<nowiki>- This would have been… Rajiv became Prime Minister around ‘84/’85… </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- ’84 Indira died. So Rajiv… </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>''Uhh…'' you can imagine it this way, the first – (''haan, beta?'' … )
|(Short interruption, untranscribed.)
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|<nowiki>- … </nowiki>'''Should I wrap for now, if you need to go?'''
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|<nowiki>- Let me conclude this bit. Where was I?</nowiki>
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|48:38
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''You were, ’84, getting the Doordarshan gig.'''
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|'''50:18'''
|<nowiki>- So, Doordarshan, </nowiki>''uhh…'' you see, how… I’ve not been EC, I’m not CNN, I’m not Fox, I’m just poor me. So what would I do? I used to play systems. The Ambassadors would know me. They would know that I know Rajiv. MEA would know me. So, I said now that we are about to go to Moscow, I want to be the first Indian to interview Comrade Gorbachev, you follow? So, I had to play this system. They all do the same, but they have big advantages because they have ''naam''. So, the first Indian to enter the bloody Minsky hall of the Kremlin palace was yours truly, Saeed Naqvi, who interviewed Gorbachev. He had just become Secretary of the Communist Party in Soviet Union in 1985, that very year I was there. I was the very first Indian to have interviewed, entered the White House. Where I met Jimmy Carter. Interviewed ''uhh''… So all of this is going on with Doordarshan. And ''uhh''… then it became a regular thing and they gave me some money with which I … fascinating story, how I made money. How I became rich.
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''(laughs)'''
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|<nowiki>- Yeah. </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Do tell.'''
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|Okay. Very little money in tis They gave you say, ten thousand rupees, whatever. Some lakhs. I forget exactly. Enough money not very generous. Kabir-vabir, ''yeh sab mere saath rehte tha, yaar''. ''Inn sabko idhar yeh karo –'' the first task was go to a station, find out the best restaurant. Ask Kabir Khan. He’ll tell you. Where’s the best restaurant. All ''qabool*'' would go there. The first gulf war. I had to cover. 1991, February Operation Desert Storm I got to the Saudis for a visa. They say the Americans are prosecuting the way, you go to them for the visa. I go the Americans for a visa, they say the Saudis are prosecuting the war, you go to the… because it is Saudi territory. So ultimately I too the easy way out, I got a visa for Baghdad, and I turned up there and Al Mansoor hotel – Al Rasheed Hotel, fourteenth floor. There I was and what I saw – may god never show anyone again. Oh! boy. Oh boy, oh boy. It was like a… a giant rattle amplified a million times. Imagine a rattle that children have?
|*best guess
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Yeah.'''
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|<nowiki>- it was…. Okay. Now… there were two schools of thought. Some thought that war will happen, I belonged to the other which said that war will not happen. Logic for that. When it happened, big American cameras – </nowiki>''achha,'' when those days, a beta cam camera, you had – you got which was very expensive. Forty lakhs, forty-five lakhs, thirty-five lakhs beta cam. And, therefore to carry them with you, it meant five thousand a day or ten thousand a day, this was the price. SAO whatever money you got it was all cut out because of the beta cam and the equipment. Shuttler and all these things you carried with . ''Wahan pe saale yeh sab jab bhaage toh'' local these stringers – Iraqi stringers. They were saddled with four beta cam cameras. ''Humne kaha, becho.'' Take it. ''Sab bhaag ke, chhod ke, Americans. Equipment chood ke, Stringer pe. Five thousand dollars for one beta cam.'' Which, in the market over here was forty lakhs. Now…
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Wah.'''''
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|<nowiki>- You couldn’t run it. You couldn’t run the camera because without a license. And you were too prominent. I was very prominent in those days with television and coming in – they’ll catch you. You didn’t want that kind of a thing. I brought the camera, I delivered it to customs, </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Kitne… –''''' '''you bought one or…?'''
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|<nowiki>- One, one. In fact I didn’t have more money, I was not ambitious in that sense, … cheap. Five thousand. So five thousand I </nowiki>''lagaoed'', I gave it to these people in the … customs. I said, this is the story. They had seen me, come and go, come and go. Recognised me, equipment coming and going… SO it was immediately, signed something. I went to the… revenue office here and I got a receipt for… So I had a full, legitimate… –
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|54:24
|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Pakka.'''''
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>''Pakka!'' Camera, from the war. In Afghanistan… which saved me, at the rate of five or ten thousand rupees a day. So, therefore the money that I was getting from there, suddenly multiplied astronomically. So I became a rich guy. Believe it or not. I mean just that effing camera. You follow?
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''War booty.'''
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|<nowiki>- War booty. </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Superb. I hope you kept that camera.'''
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>''Huh?''
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''Should have kept that camera.'''
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|<nowiki>- It is! It is lying.</nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''They’ve just discontinued. Sony has just discontinued the beta. Cassettes, ''na?'' Finally.'''
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|<nowiki>- They’ve discontinued? Yeah. Can you believe it? So, that’s how it became – it became, just the right place, right time. </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''That’s quite something.'''
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|<nowiki>- So, if you want any more, I am available. We can talk, even on the telephone. </nowiki>
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|<nowiki>- </nowiki>'''''Chalo.''''' '''No, this was really lovely. ''Uhm,'' I will probably bug you again… –'''
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00:36:41
00:55:35